Tough rulings in Cyprus: When a muck is not a muck
There have been at least two noteworthy rulings for the tournament staff in Cyprus. We get the official lowdown
There’s no such thing as an uneventful festival on the European Poker Tour (EPT), and here in Cyprus tournament officials have been called to make at least two difficult rulings in tricky spots.
Both have attracted some vociferous discussion among keyboard warriors, which meant it’s time to hear from the person at the centre of it: EPT tournament director Toby Stone.
The first took ruling happened during the $2,200 Eureka High Roller tournament and was notable as it involved cards being retrieved from the muck. The second came on the penultimate day of the $5,300 EPT Main Event, and centred on whether a player had called an all-in shove that they said they hadn’t intended to.
At time of writing, Stone has yet to gather all the facts about the second case, so this article will be updated when he speaks with us later. But he was happy to share his thoughts on the first case, which are related near enough verbatim below.
The ever-controversial muck
WHEN A MUCK IS NOT A MUCK
According to the live hand updates on Poker News, the pot in question occurred at the end of Level 10, just before a tournament break. In it, two players had cards and the board was out in full: 3♥ 2♦ 8♥ 7♥ J♠ .
Merijn van Rooij, with a bigger stack, moved all-in and Maan El Hachem called off his remaining chips. Van Rooij tabled his K♥ K♦ and El Hachem pushed his cards forward, indicating a fold. The dealer took his cards and put them on the top of the muck, before El Hachem suddenly realised he had made a mistake.
El Hachem said he thought Van Rooij had K♥ J♥ for a flush, and that he had mucked pocket deuces, for a set. His hand could beat the pair of kings Van Rooij actually had.
Maan El Hachem stayed alive in the tournament
The floor supervisor came over and ruled initially that El Hachem’s hand was dead because it had gone into the muck. However, some other players at the table noted that hands must be tabled when there is a called all-in, so the hand should not technically have been in the muck in the first place.
The floor asked Stone to come over to issue a final adjudication, and after due consideration (see below), the Tournament Director allowed the cards to come back out of the muck and for them to be turned over.
The dealer did just that and showed the pocket deuces El Hachem claimed he had had. The pot therefore went to El Hachem and kept him in the tournament.
Stone himself picks up the story.
SEEKING CONFIRMATION
Toby Stone says: The floor came over and they wanted me to confirm a ruling, or agree a ruling, because they were a little bit unsure. On the table there were two camps: a lot of people wanted one thing and others wanted another. The floor wanted to get my agreement.
There are two rules here that you have to think about. One is that when the cards are in the muck, they’re dead and you can’t get them out. It’s a very clear rule that often will supersede any other rule. But the other rule is that an all-in hand can’t be mucked.
They’re the two things. He was all-in, but the cards were in the muck. There are two rules there that contradict each other.
The floor made the ruling that they’re in the muck, and this supersedes the other one. But, they weren’t really in the muck. They were on top of the muck, clearly retrievable. One hundred percent, clearly retrievable. Without any doubts, it was those two cards and everybody agreed it was those two cards.
I understand why the floor made that ruling because it is a bit of a grey area and there is one clear rule that when they’re in the muck they’re in the muck and that’s it.
The responsibilities of a dealer stretch further than just pitching cards
TWO CONTRADICTORY RULES
But obviously there’s also another rule, which is that the Tournament Director has discretion. That’s rule number one, and we can make any ruling in the moment if we think it is correct, in the interests of the game. We only use that if we feel it’s in the interest of the game.
So it got brought to me and, honestly, my initial thought was: well, they’re in the muck, and they’re dead. But I looked at the clock and it was five minutes before the end of the break, so I had time. I can always take my time, but obviously I don’t have to worry, I don’t have the stress that the table is waiting and I have to make my decision fast.
But that really was my initial reaction, and that was what the floor had initially ruled. But then I thought about it a little bit, and I thought about those two options.
DEALER’S RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT
The cards are in the muck, sure, but the dealer has the responsibility to protect an all-in hand. And the dealer didn’t do that. Everybody makes mistakes, and it’s fine. A dealer will sometimes make mistakes. The dealer should have protected the hand from going in the muck and if the dealer had done that job properly, that hand would have been turned over and that person would have won the pot.
Those cards were clearly retrievable, on top of the deck, without a shadow of a doubt. So in the end, it was actually not that much of a difficult ruling. It’s just because there are those two rules. I’ve spoken to a few people, and the first thought for everybody was, ‘No, they’re dead.’ But you need to step back a little bit and think a little bit more.
HOW CAN A DEALER PROTECT CARDS IF THE PLAYER IS INTENT ON MUCKING?
They have arms. You can possibly sometimes see that a player is going to muck, and you can really, physically, stop them doing it. Put your hands on the cards, or put your arms out, or protect the muck by putting your arms around it. Of course, the player can throw it in, get it in when you’re not looking, and it has happened in the past. Players have thrown cards in and we haven’t been able to retrieve them.
But we just have to do our best. They have to anticipate it — “Sir, don’t fold, it’s an all-in” — stopping the cards if you can, and also protecting the muck with your hands.
But sometimes they do get in there, and once they’re in, they’re in and that’s it. It’s too late. At that point, we’d give them a penalty for deliberately mucking their cards when they’re not allowed to muck their cards. So they’d probably get a one-round penalty.
AND WHAT IF THE CARDS IN THE MUCK HADN’T BEEN POCKET DEUCES?
Then his hand’s dead. We have to admit that we were wrong and they weren’t clearly retrievable. Theoretically, sure, that could happen. But it’s very unlikely because we are not retrieving those cards unless we 100 percent know. If there’s any shadow of a doubt, they’re just not being retrieved.
We wouldn’t really ask a player what they were, we shouldn’t. We would only say, “Is it those two cards?” And if it was, then we would turn them over. If it’s 100 percent clearly retrievable, without a shadow of a doubt, and then you confirm it, yes, OK.
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